Today Dannie and Caitlyn are talking with Amanda Gulino of A Better Monday.

We believe in accessible content and that anyone who wants to learn from this content should be able to. In order to support this, we’ve had every episode of Season 4 transcribed. The transcriptions are available at the bottom of every episode blog post.

SHOW HIGHLIGHTS:

• Learning to take a step back from your side hustle to reevaluate and reenergize.

• How to balance not taking things personally while you are on this extremely personal journey.

• How it is ok to embracing being in a waiting pattern for the next big step in your side hustle. While still addressing the void that occurs.

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Dannie Lynn Fountain: [00:00:21] Hello and welcome back to the side hustle gal podcast. Today we have one of my longtime friends, business friends, a business like partners. I guess if we talk about she will, um, clients. She's been a client of mine, Jordan Lacenski. Hold on, I always forget to ask you how to say her name. Jordan. Les. I did it again.

Yep. Jordan, listen, ski. Uh, so Jordan, I'm going to toss it over to you. What? Tell us what's up with brand boss. What's up with she will what you're doing now because I know that you're back in the corporate world. I can't wait to hear all about it. 

Jordan Lacenski: [00:01:02] Yeah, girl, thank you so much and love. That we are in each other's lives in so many layers in ways.

Um, so thanks for having me. What is going on with me? Wow. It's been an interesting, uh, four year journey really. But, um, as you know, I had brand box creative, which was a boutique branding firm. I opened and closed that in three years. I opened it in 2016. I had a freaking blast. I grew this thing. I had consultants, I had the CEO ego things going on.

We, I was like, became becoming obsessed with processes and operations and customer service and just how to grow and improve this branding firm and, uh, how to make things really smooth for everyone involved. And then early 2019, we went through a litigation, which was kind of like the second of the three strikes, you know, uh, we had, we lost a huge client because they lost a huge client.

And then we went through this litigation and it was wild. And. My consultant at the time was saying like, this is just something you prepare for in business, right? Like, if you budget for it, it happens when you're a business owner. At some point you will get sued. Like it's kind of like lock them to the big leagues, honey, you know?

Um, but it was personally difficult and professionally difficult and hard on our team and hard on our P. and. L, you know? I mean, just all of it. And so it's actually, um, an advised by our lawyers, just easier to close the business. So we closed that business. It was an LLC and a pretty easy process to do.

Um, and she will simultaneously, you know, she will had started as this collaborative where. Agencies or people like brand boss, like yourself, like other graphic designers and photographers and videographers and audio experts, and all of these people in the content creation, marketing, advertising world would come together for these projects and that's how she will start it.

And I had a business partner and it was a super fun, wild ride. And we relocated it to Bozeman, Montana, to North Carolina. And you know, just kind of our shields pack was growing and, and really all over the U S and we decided that we wanted to try to make it a community, an online membership community, because what was happening was.

The gals that are, we're working on projects. That's us. We would be on a call about a project and as soon as the client would hop off, everyone would say, how do you handle this? How much do you charge for this? Do you have a contract template? I can use all these things that, especially as a creative, you enter into business and you know how to do your trade.

You know how to be creative, but the actual business side, nobody really teaches you that. In school unless you go for your MBA. So, uh, and even then, which I did, you know, even then, I mean, there's so many unanswered questions. So, so we tried our hand at launching a community, which simultaneously this launch was happening while a brand boss was in this lawsuit.

Um, and it just took me down. Uh, I was totally wiped out, totally burned out. Uh, just. Spinning my wheels, trying to make it happen. Um, and I'd just gotten to the point where my body and my mind and everything said, girl, take a break. So I took a break. And, um, I took some freelance contracts, uh, one of which was, uh, for a company in Dallas as a kind of an interim creative director, one of which is still going on, which is working for a nonprofit.

I'm coordinating their biggest fundraiser. Um, one of which is project management for a friend of mine who has, who owns several companies. Uh, so yeah, I, it's, it's kind of this weird floating, moving thing right now, and I've never done this in my life, but I'm waiting. I'm just kind of waiting for the next thing.

Um, and I feel like it looks like being an intra preneur for a little bit, but I'm not certain. And so I'm not making any big decisions. Uh, but I am eyeballs open. I'm looking for kind of a new challenge. So that's my, my side hustle has went from a full time gig to just leaning, leaning the fuck out, and just being me, which within a home office, which is weird, which was a really weird experience, but it's been really good.

Dannie Lynn Fountain: [00:05:26] That's such a journey, but it's coming from watching along the sidelines. I know. What a transition it's been for you. I know how crazy it's been for you, but I love that you're waiting for the right 

opportunity 

instead of forced. An opportunity is so that. Security is there, because I definitely lean towards the ladder, but leaning towards the former is what creates these like big next changes for folks.

So I love that. Yeah.

I have to ask. So you, you described the tactical evolution of things. How  would you say your emotions have evolved over the last four 

Jordan Lacenski: [00:06:10] years? Oh my gosh. So I, if you want to be humbled and challenged and like the most excited you'll ever be and the most suppressed, you'll FRP cry in public.

And I mean, just all these things, you should totally start a business. I highly recommend it. Um, I feel like, I think I've, my emotions have gone from. Really learning the belief, like I got this and embracing a confidence that didn't quite have before. And I think part of that is just what society tells us as women.

And part of that is. How we grow up. And part of that is just who we are. Um, and so that was a really cool journey to embrace and just embracing like the business mind and being cool with that. Like my, how I approach things, like what my Enneagram type is, or what my Myers-Briggs says might be a little bit different when it comes to how I run my business than it, than it is for me, like at home, you know.

Um, so. I think that's a really positive thing. I think all of it ends up being positive. All the challenges you embrace and go through, and that's teaching me something. And all adversity, you know, teaches you something. And when you're in it, you don't believe that. But the really, at the end of the day, uh, you learn a lot.

I think the other, the biggest piece, I think this year has been from being on cloud nine, um, and just. Like getting a taste of, uh, we're scaling this thing, or we're launching this thing, or just this startup flavor. And then like a month later being at the lowest low, um, and taking all of that ego and just squashing it.

And going through the phases of embarrassment and like hibernation, you know, I think like I didn't go to where I had an office or at a really cool kind of coworking, um, place in downtown Greensboro and I didn't go there for like six months. I was just embarrassed. Like, Oh, I failed and now I'm going to go in and all these people are not going to take me seriously.

And I'm looking for freelance contracts, gigs, and how am I going to convince them that I. And still good at what I do. Um, and so definitely a lot of that self talk and processing and therapy, Holy hell therapy. Um, so I think, I think it's challenged me to discover who I am without a business. I think when you're an entrepreneur, it becomes so much of who you are.

You never. Really sleep and not think about it. You're never really off. You don't really check out. You're, you're always on. Um, and I think this year the emotional journey for me has been, this is who you are as a wife or not a wife. This is who you are as a business owner or not a business owner. This is who you are with, uh.

Your community and your pack and without, um, and so it's been, and it's a discovery. I'm still figuring that out, but I think the emotional, the emotional piece of all that, it's challenged me in ways I never would have imagined. And I mean, going through all of it, like grief, anger, resentment, you know, this, this litigation was like with a female owned business, you know, and I, and I knew her.

Like in terms of like qualifying your leads so that stuff doesn't happen. I did that, you know, and I was so disappointed at the way that things were happening. I was taking it so personally, like, how could you do this to me? You're, you're like single-handedly trying to ruin my business. What's going on?

You know? And I think it's been interesting to kind of step back and say, everybody has their stuff, like life is happening for everyone all the time. And. You can't take it personally. Uh, while it is a very personal journey, you know, um, people aren't necessarily coming for you. They're trying to survive themselves.

So I think this year that's been the biggest thing is just like slicing that ego way down. Um, not to like a self-deprecation level, but just at a. You know, if you're, if you're not at the top of your game, you know what I mean? Using air quotes or, you know, if you're not on the cover of Forbes or, or if you're not successful, whatever that means, you know, what does success mean to you?

Uh, then what, um, and that's part of like, taking the risks. Like that's part of stepping out on your own and creating something. It's like big risk, big reward, and like also big risk, huge failure, you know, huge, huge, uh, impact on, on your life and everyone around you. So. Yeah. Girl. It's been a been a journey.

It's been an emotional journey too. 

Caitlyn Allen: [00:10:36] Ah, man. Yeah. So I think there's two really huge takeaways in that that I want to discuss a bit further. Um, maybe one we just have to highlight, but the first one is the sense of who you are outside of your business, especially a side hustlers. Um, specifically we are working and then also side hustling our business. And where does like you as a person stand? And then the second part is. When you do decide to go full time, you are not your business. And that's why you protect yourself with an LLC, so that when you get, you did not get your house taken away too. Um, so. They're two really, really big pieces there, but I want to talk to you a little bit more about like you outside of the business. So what do you do?  Um, when you try to pull yourself away from, um, working and hustling and balancing all of the things, what do you do as a person to pull yourself away from it? 

Jordan Lacenski: [00:11:40] Yeah. I think the answer a year ago, and the answer now are so different. I think, um, the answer a year ago would be, yeah. Like I hang out with my friends.

Well, guess what? All of my friends are also side hustling or have businesses. So eventually talk about business. That's not really a play way. Um, I think it was, uh. Reading, uh, which also tended to lead towards like kind of personal and professional development. Now I think what I ha, I think my body has forced me to do, uh, is rest and totally check out.

Like. Your computer is not on you. I mean, maybe it's Netflix thing. I don't know. Like maybe it's hanging out watching true crime shows. Maybe it's taking a leisurely chill walk in the neighborhood with our dogs. You know, maybe it's, um, going to like a cafe by myself without my computer to kind of sit, get some vitamin D, eat a croissant, you know, grab a coffee.

Um. I think part of it has been, you know, I have, I have a lot of friends that live somewhat close in there. They all are, you know, um, celebrating really cool milestones, like adopting children and having children and and moving and buying new houses and things like that. And so really trying to spend quality time with those people.

I think that's been really big. And I think, um, I think therapy again has been like, that is. Like my self care, um, as been really, really huge. And, um, and so with that, I kind of discovered like, what else is it that I need to do? You know, is it, is it some kind of exercise? Because I think for me, especially this year.

It was the energy that it felt like it would take to go to the gym and like actually lift weights was just like not happening. Um, but being okay with maybe I cycled for 20 minutes, or maybe I go on a walk or maybe I parked further away in the parking lot just to get my body moving and get some endorphins going.

So, and art, I think like this year it's been cool. It's like, uh, something I'm really passionate about that I haven't. Spend a lot of time doing. And, uh, we have awesome art museums here and there. Cheap or free, you know. And so like, I went to the Frida Kahlo exhibit and just walked around the thing like four separate times, you know, and just stared at these really cool photographs and, and artwork.

And I'm reading these stories. And so. That's what's the, this year, that's what I've been doing. M and a and a year ago it would have been like, Oh, well, I'm just so go, go, go. But I go, go, go in a different way. Or I maybe this networking thing feels fun, but it's still me, you know? Um, so I think it's more, more rest.

Caitlyn Allen: [00:14:18] I love that answer because I love that, you know, the difference between hanging out with. Entrepreneurs also, um, as like, Oh, that's my fulfilling thing that I do for myself. But really all you're doing is talking about work. And I think it, it takes us so long to figure out that like, okay, I have to distinguish myself specifically from my business and how am I going to do that? Even if it's finding friends that. Can't comprehend business, then like, yes, perfect. Let's not talk about that. yeah, that's always something that, um, I know I've struggled with is finding a way to like turn off that business mentality or, Oh, I can put my phone down for 10 minutes and if a client messages me, I don't have to respond right away type of thing. Um, and especially as a side hustler. That's so hard.

Jordan Lacenski: [00:15:15] Right, right. And then there's pressure while you're, I mean, even like I'll work at the nonprofit, I work in the office, uh, one day a week, and I go to meetings another day, a week. But that one day a week I'm in there and I'm stressing about any other. Contracts, you know, like, or any other to do's and like, Oh, I need to answer that email, but I'm really, you know, like, I'm on the clock for this nonprofit. I can't be doing that. You know, it's, um,  I remember when I started my business and it being a true side hustle and having a full time job and just feeling like, okay, can I schedule a meeting at four and can I get it to the office at seven and leave at three 45 and, you know, I mean, just how to make it work. Um. And yeah, it becomes all your spare time really becomes about the side hustle and feels like there's not enough hours in the day and it's all about prioritizing yourself too. 

Caitlyn Allen: [00:16:04] Yeah. So I guess moving on from that, how do you like organize your day in a personal way and then in the business sort of way, like how do you, how do you tend to blend them together?

Jordan Lacenski: [00:16:16] Oh, still figuring that out for sure. Um, because it's so different than it used to be. Uh, it definitely used to be. Wake up, go, you know, coffee, coffee first. Uh, love the dogs out. Go straight to the office, work, work, work, meetings, meetings, meetings, networking, saying go home. Uh, and when I was like down on the couch, I was down on the couch.

Like I wasn't getting up for anything. Um, and my sweet husband was like making dinner most nights. Um, so now it's been like training myself to say. You want to go to the gym at 9:00 AM, you can do that because totally empty and you have the space to yourself. There's no real pressure and you can listen to the music you want to listen to and um, or if you wanna wake up, answer a couple emails and then go on a long walk, you can do that.

So I think I'm kind of trying to train myself in that way. Mondays I always have a status call for the project management gig. I do. And so Mondays are typically like. Kick the week off, get shit done. So I like that because I have this status call and then at least for that, that dig, I know everything that I need to do for the week and I can organize myself.

Um, so Mondays are typically a lot of like admin, organization, emails, that kind of thing. Tuesdays are always pretty blank on the, on the calendar. So those are days that I typically like. All right, I'm going to go for a walk, or I'm going to go to the gym at an odd hour. Um, or I might meet a friend for lunch, or I might go on a walk with, with a

You know, my friend who's a new mom and is also like get me out of his house. Um, so I might do something like that for an hour or two. And then I'm definitely in yoga pants hanging out at the, at my home computer and just kind of cranking out some creative things that need to be done. More like content execution.

Um, Wednesdays are somewhat similar. Sometimes I have some in person meetings on Wednesdays. I try to keep them on that day. So I know like. Okay. On Wednesday, if you wash your hair, you know, and I'm on Thursdays, I do the volunteer center, so. Part of Wednesday. Um, if I have any meetings outside of that, like really prep for everything that needs to be done on Thursday, if there's any like pre-work that needs to be done for me, being in the, the office that, uh, is called the volunteer center.

So I, I try to. Solely focused on that gig on Thursdays, if I can. Um, and Fridays I try to be pretty chill. Like I've tried to, like today, I, I'm obviously I'm talking to you, uh, which I love. And, um, I had a doctor's appointment and I am, uh, my husband and I are hitting the road out of town a little bit early today, and I have some calls from the road, but, uh, we're going camping.

So I tried to get. I try to let Friday kind of start the weekend and I, that sounds like really luxurious. Again, like I'm in this, it's a privilege right now to be able to do that because I'm in this waiting stage. Uh, but I'm with the gigs that I have. I'm making enough to be able to do that. I'm not hitting my, my big goals, but I'm making enough.

As I'm, as I'm kind of waiting, and I'm not committing to anything that is bigger than that at this moment. Um, and so I'm thankful that I can do that. I know not everybody can, but that's what my week looks like now. And in Saturdays and Sundays, I do nada, like I do nothing business-related on Saturdays and Sundays, which has been really a much needed change. Uh, and I've really embraced it. It's been great.

Dannie Lynn Fountain: [00:19:39] I am. I'm first so grateful that you're embracing rest and embracing space and embrace sitting breathing room because I definitely am someone that's guilty of not doing those things. I think it's really smart to be doing those things. Um, but I also, I'm also,

Jordan Lacenski: [00:19:58] I've looked at my week, I'm like, your week does not look like that at all.

No, no. 

Dannie Lynn Fountain: [00:20:05] Um, I'm also curious cause I think the biggest thing that I struggle with, and I wonder if you struggled with this in the beginning too, is. How to address the void. Like people like you, people like me, people like Caitlyn are so good at packing our schedules. So full that to take that space invokes feelings of guilt. Feelings of what am I not doing? What am I forgetting? What like the like entrepreneurial FOMO that comes from not having things in that time. How did you wrestle with that in the beginning?

Jordan Lacenski: [00:20:40] I'm still wrestling with that. I've actually, as I'm as I'm like telling every day, I'm, I'm telling myself, wait, you know, and I know even you and I have had conversations about just, uh, different companies or different people, because I definitely feel bored because I am so used to chaos.

Um, and so part of that journey has been like me in therapy saying, am I bored because I'm used to things being so insane and unhealthy that I don't know what to do with myself now, or am I bored because I really am missing a challenge that I need. So it's, that's been hardest part of the process right now has been all right, we really do need to like dig deeper and figure this out because I think.

You know, for the last five years, really, life's been pseudo chaotic. You know, we've moved across the country twice. My husband switched positions, switched jobs. He got out of the military. You know, we, we've like rescued a million dogs and had like a geriatric home for dogs for awhile. It's just been some kind of a big change.

Uh, all the time was, was basically how life was. Running before. So it's really hard. I don't, I don't know the answer. I think, um, when I, in the beginning, I don't know that I had a choice. I think my, I was so, uh, emotionally like pers, like things in our personal lives were happening simultaneously on top of all this other stuff.

And I was so stressed out and I just wanted to hide. And I've never been there before. Like, I mean, I was like in bed. Eating Twizzlers for whatever reason. That was the only thing that I felt like eating. Just my mom was coming by and saying, I brought you soup and a sandwich cause you have to eat food.

You know, like I just was really having a hard time. Um, and I think I, I, my body was just like shut down. Like just, it was like, I just had pain in my back and my shoulders and my neck and I was so tired. It felt like mano hit me. Like I just was so exhausted, so I didn't have a choice. Other than to embrace the void.

Um, and now, you know, eight ish months later, um, I'm starting to feel really itchy and antsy and bored and trying to fill that with things. And in the last few weeks, it's been interesting because I have packed my schedule more than I should and I'm feeling a little bit more anxious. and I deal with anxiety anyway.

It's kind of resurfaced in a new way. And so that's been kind of a warning sign because I've, I've this good, you know, I was like breathing normally my heart's beating normally for a while. And then the last few weeks as I've been a little bit forward and trying to pack myself full of like, Hey, yeah, I'll join this board and yell, and that's where this person, and yeah, I'll, I'll help you with that messaging and bloat, like loading up that. That plate a little bit too much. Um, I've been feeling it just with, uh, just, just with time and just with anxiety. And so I think that's been a warning sign. So then I think that may be, helps me reevaluate and say, all right, I gotta I gotta pump the brakes a little bit. Um, and what's really a priority? What's, what do I really want to be doing? What's really fulfilling me right now.

Dannie Lynn Fountain: [00:23:40] I think that that is so important. This, this, I put something that's truly giving me some really good vibes and chills because I think conversations are so important, and I think that something you said earlier was like feeling like a failure. Feeling like you had let people down, feeling like other folks were not going to see your worth because you weren't all of these things that you were once. And I want to take a step back first of all and acknowledge that. 

Someone out there has to be the entrepreneur that stops hustling 95 hours a week. Uh, and so in your own way, your new identity is going to help, frankly speaking people like me, but also people listening to this podcast who. Are hustling too hard, who are doing too many things, who are involved in too much to take any breeze and say, you know what? Like maybe I need to change to where's the space in my life? 

Jordan Lacenski: [00:24:43] Yeah.  

Dannie Lynn Fountain: [00:24:44] know that you're freaking awesome. So you've gone through this huge evolution, but what about people who are too close to things to see that it's time to evolve? What advice would you give to someone who's not ready to hear advice that they need to take a step back? 

Jordan Lacenski: [00:25:08] You know, I think this is something that I've been challenging myself with a lot because I have a couple of friends that are so good at this because I am one of those people. I don't, I'm like, you're giving me advice and I'm not going to listen to any of it. Thanks. Bye. You know, I am a hard, I'm kind of a hard nut to crack when it comes to that, and so. There are a couple people in my life who asks really pointed questions that helped me discover that myself. So like they might say, is that working for you? Or, um, do you feel healthy? Like overall, like just your body, your mind? Like, do you feel healthy? And I'll probably say out loud, yeah, things are great. But in my gut and in my heart and in my soul. There's alarms going off. Like, no girl, you are on the verge of burnout. Like, and you know, why are you acting like it's all good?

Um, and so I think I've watched them get through to me in those ways, and I have tried to. Mirror that for other people. And, and you know, I have a lot of friends that are actually in the exact same boat right now. You know, they, they've been hustling at like full speed for the last two years in their business. They like one of them, for example, just hit $1 million in revenue. She's super excited. She's like growing, growing, growing. It's a super small team. They're staying really lean and she's working 19 hour days every day. And every time I see her, she is, that's one of the first things that we talk about. It's like, and today was another 19 hour day and I want to sh, you know, you want to shake her, cause you just want to say stop doing this to yourself.

But there's this pressure I'm sure in her mind, like if we could just get here, if I could just get to the next phase. So I think the advice would be really to like. Step back. Do a workshop, you know, have a coach, have a consultant, have somebody that you really trust who's going to ask you really hard questions, help you discover what you're doing.

All this for. I think like defining the goal, defining what success looks like for this thing for you is really important. Um, it could be this is my side hustle that I'm doing because I want to start putting more money in savings for my kid's college. Or it could be, I just want to be able to go out and get happy hour wine with my gal once a week and I want some fun money to do it. Or it could be, I want to take this thing full time. Um, and so. I think working with someone who's not you, who's able to see that and say, all right, well, is working 19 hours a day getting you there? Like, is it, is it reaching your goals? You know, how are you, how are you auditing those goals? Like how are you measuring if you're reaching them?

Um, and I think. I think we know ourselves better than we think we do. I think we know like your gut is really powerful and it tells you things. And so like when people ask you those questions, if something in you feels like, ah, this is a lot, or if, if your throat is sore all the time and you're on the verge of a cold all the time and you wake up in the morning and you're so tired, you know there's, there may be something there that.

Like your body's telling you, Hey, you need to slow down. Um, but I think that's the biggest thing is like surrounding yourself with people that are going to be really honest with you, but in a way that you'll actually hear it and in a way that'll impact you to make the right choices and decisions. And sometimes that's just asking you questions, you know, just asking you hard questions and not telling you anything, not telling you you should or shouldn't do anything. But just saying, wow, it seems like you're working a lot. How's that feeling for you? Like, how's that sitting with you? How you doing? You know, I think for me, that's what works. So that's what I would suggest.

Caitlyn Allen: [00:28:43] Yes. I am so thankful when, um. Even sometimes my clients are like, Hey, you know, I just realized, I've been talking to you like all day and I know you have other clients. How are you doing? Like even just having my clients call me. Yeah. I mean, as a project manager, you, you would know, you know, um, sometimes your clients or you're talking to your clients all day to make sure things are moving along, especially when you're delegating out and. I think those check-ins have really made me realize, Whoa, like not only should I be taking care of myself, but I need to surround my self with the people who are checking in with me also, because that just means the world. When somebody asks you, Hey, how are you doing? Like how are you actually doing? Um, and sometimes it sucks. Like sometimes it's so hard to be like. Well, I'm fine, but, and then evaluating it and in your head it's, it's so hard. But I loved this conversation. You are amazing. I feel like we could talk all day and I think our audience is going to really, really love this episode.

Um, but we do have wrap up at some point, 

Jordan Lacenski: [00:30:03] right. So, 

Caitlyn Allen: [00:30:05] um, where can we find you on the interwebs? 

Jordan Lacenski: [00:30:10] Yeah. So now, um, my website is just me and Jordan, alexandria.com. So Alexandria, like, like the city in Virginia. Um, and Jordan, just like Michael. Um, they'll just like that. Um, and you can find me on Instagram and Facebook.

Sometimes I try not to, uh. I, I try to actually now, especially because I don't have to, for my, for my business, like be on social all the time. I'm not on there as much, but I, but I have like a love affair with Instagram. So I'm civically on Instagram at, um, Jordan. Dot. Alexandria or at J listen, P that that will be a tough one for, uh, for people, but it's in my bio for my other one.

Well, yeah, you'll find me there. 

Caitlyn Allen: [00:30:54] Well link all of those in the show notes. Um, and I just really wanted to say thank you so much for your vulnerability today. 

Jordan Lacenski: [00:31:01] Yeah, thank you. Thanks for being an awesome person, a safe place, and for creating space for these conversations. It's super important. It's huge.